Honig's mailbox!
On this side Dick Honig answers questions sent to
him.
If you have any questions regarding the rules send a email to dick@honigs.com
The date format used is YYMMDD
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|
Honig's mailbox!On this side Dick Honig answers questions sent to
him.
The date format used is YYMMDD |
DATE 030713
Which position do you use on punts as referee? I
know that the CCA mechanics of 1998 stated it to be in slightly in front of the
punter but I have a feeling that I have been told something different (maybe by
you or maybe by my subconscious). I used the position behind the punter in a 45
degree angle.
ANSWER - your starting position should be on a yard line equal with the kicker -
that will give you a 45 degree look when he steps up and kicks the ball. On FG
you should also be at a 45 degree angle looking at the holder - wide in both
cases.
This was a new mechanic in 2000 - old mechanic had you on a yard line equal to
the spot where the ball would be kicked.
Dick
DATE 030710
4th and goal for HOME from the 11
yd line, 19 seconds to go, time starts
on the snap. Score is tied at 22.
HOME sets up for a field goal and snaps the ball.
The Nose guard of VISITING is a fast guy and shoots the gap (he actually
does NOT touch the snapper) and gets in front of holder and of the ball.
He kicks the ball the other way, in a perfect field goal
style!!!
Ball bounces to the 40 yd line and goes out of bounds there. 5 seconds remain
in the game.
My call: flag for illegally kicking the ball, ball remained live, half the
distance to the goal and another 4th down for HOME. time starts on the snap.
My doubt: could this be an illegal kick? then I shold have blown the play
dead right away and set for a 4th down from the 6 yd line. but time would
have been stopped for the penalty and should be starting on the ready to
play.
Answer - The correct call is illegal kicking and all procedures that followed
- you have to be in possession of the ball to have an illegal kick.
Dick
Date 030709
1:35 left in 4. QRT and Team B is
leading 20 to 11. Team A kicked off and
kick is caught by B32 in end zone. B32 hand it in end zone forward to
his teammate B49 who ran to his own 5 yard and fumbled the ball there.
Team A48 advanced the ball to a touchdown.
My question is, is illegal forward handoff penalty declined by rule or
should I give the option safety or touchdown?
ANSWER - the penalty is not declined and since the team was down by 9
points - they probably would have elected to take the penalty - which
results in a safety. Now the score is 20-13 and the team who is leading must
kick to the team that is losing. It is really their best chance to tie or
win the game.
Dick
Date 030402
According to the 2002 NCAA rulebook, there is an exception phrase about
scrimmage kick numbering.
In that phrase (Rule 1-4-2-b) it states that a person, who by his initial
position (between the ends) is an ineligible receiver, remains so until a pass
has been touched.
Does this also apply when it is a normal scrimmage down?
NO - AS LONG AS THE TEAM HAS 5 PLAYERS NUMBERED 50-79 SHIFTING TO MAKE PEOPLE
WITH ELIGIBLE NUMBERS - ELIGIBLE - IS LEGAL.THIS IS ALSO TRUE IN A SCRIMMAGE
KICK FORMATION - THE KEY IN THE SCRIMMAGE KICK FORMATION IS WHETHER THEY HAVE 5
PLAYERS 50-79. IN A SCRIMMAGE KICK FORMATION - WITHOUT 5 PLAYERS 50-79 - ANY
PLAYER THAT IS BETWEEN THE PLAYERS ON THE END OF THE LINE - IS INELIGIBLE AND
CAN NEVER BECOME ELIGIBLE - THE MINUTE THE CENTER TOUCHES THE FOOTBALL. NO
SHIFTING CAN MAKE ONE OF THESE PLAYERS BETWEEN THE ENDS ELIGIBLE. IF A TEAM
SHIFTS AND LEAVES ONE OF THESE ORIGINALLY IN-ELIGIBLE PLAYERS - IN AN ELIGIBLE
POSITION - IT IS A FOUL (PROCEDURE) AT THE SNAP.
Situation: A88, normally a Tight end, is positioned on the right side of the
formation, on the line. To his right is a split End, A21 also on the line.
Before the snap, A88 shifts from his position and to the other side, now being
the End on the left side.
When is he caught? (AT THE SNAP) I am thinking snapper’s hands on the ball (THIS
IS KEY).
Is his shift a false start? (NEITHER - IT IS A PROCEDURE FOUL AT THE SNAP) Or
does he end up being an ineligible receiver when he shifts because his initial
position was as an interior lineman? (HE IS ELIGIBLE BY POSITION AND NUMBER BUT
THE FORMATION IS ILLEGAL BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF 5 0-79 NUMBERED PLAYERS AND THE
FACT THAT AT ONE POINT THIS PLAYER #A88 WAS AN INELIGIBLE.
Hope that this minformation helps................... Dick Honig
Date 030218
A80 and B45 jump to catch as pass and they return to the ground simultaneously in joint possession - when they land A80 is inbound and B45 is out of bounds. Is this pass complete or imcomplete?
Ruling: the answer is rather simple but hidden if you don't read carefully.. On page FR37 under the definition of Simultaneous Catch - it states when both player land in joint possession (this happened) inbounds (this did not happen) - thus no simultaneous. FR71 under Out of Bounds - states that a player in possesion of the ball (B is in possession) is Out of Bounds when touching anything other then a player or an official. Thus this play is called simply an incomplete pass
Date 011127
Play one:
Punt formation, regular scrimmage kick formation, 4th down and possibly around ten yards to go. 7 men on the LOS, punter 7 yds or more back, to up backs right behind the snapper to protect the gaps (we will call these two backs
goofy and Pluto to be clear) and another "blocking back" between goofy and the punter. the ball is snapped to this last back instead of to the Punter (who anyway fakes a run to the left). the back gets the ball and sticks it from behind between the legs of either goofy (he was regularly in the
back field at the snap, as he was about 1 yard behind the snapper). Goofy does not move, but holds the ball with his lower back and legs watching everybody going to the left and then takes the ball in his hands and starts running to the right for huge first downs.
ANSWER - Legal Play
Play two:
A players stops a rolling ball (either a kick or a loose ball) with his foot (soccer style, the football being between the foot and the field) picks the ball up and starts running.
ANSWER - Legal
Play three:
I have the video, attached to this message, the timer has to be at 16 seconds. The team has two slots on the outside of each tackle. The right slot starts a motion to the left, 45° degrees angle (very quick and sudden movement) and after a step or two they snap the ball that is handed to the slot that was in motion. All the times it looks like that this slot has started the play before the snap, but it is a motion.
ANSWER - Legal Play - if the man in motion is parallel or going backwards to the LOS
Play Four - Free Kick:
The kick bounces to receiving team's 5 yard line, close to the side line. The returner, instead of scooping up the ball, goes around it. in doing this goes out of bounds, re-enters onto the field and then picks the ball up. While picking up the ball his feet are both inbounds. Starts the return and is tackled at the 10 yd line.
ANSWER - Legal play - out of bounds illegally is only the kicking team
Play Five - Free Kick
Let turn this around and say that the one who recovers the ball is the kicker
ANSWER - The receiving team would have a choice - the ball where the kicker recovered the ball - his possessing would constitute an illegal touch giving the receiver an option to take the ball at that spot - or - The receivers could accept a 5 yard foul at the previous spot and have the kickers - rekick
Team B line up at the snap with a line backer immediately behind
the nose tackle. As soon as the ball is snapped the LB puts both
hands on the NT and pushes him into the O line. He then tries to
get through the gap to the QB.
Is this legal?
ANSWER:
YES
Here is the play that made me question my thinking A1 (QB) takes the snap, and runs an option. About the time he reaches the LOS on the right (so no gain has been made), B65 (nose tackle) takes down A50 (the center) by the facemask. The Umpire blows an inadvertent whistle and play stops. .
ANSWER:
You cannot discount any flag with an IW. All
fouls called must be penalized as they would have been had the IW not
occurred. That includes holds and minor infractions
In the play above the ball would come back to
the LOS using the replay option - if the QB was at or behind the LOS - the
penalty would be applied from that spot - A's ball first and ten
If the QB had made one yard it would be best for
team A to take the result of the play - as the penalty for the face mask
would be enforced from that spot.
Of course if the IW occurs whole the ball is loose during a kick or legal forward pass - it always goes back to the previous spot. If the IW occurs while the ball is loose from a fumble, backward pass or an illegal pass - we would use result of the play or replay or the options.
Rule Question:
3rd and 25 on own 35. Team A quick kicks the ball.
The ball:
a) goes behind LOS out of bound untouched
b) is blocked behind LOS. then goes OB
ANSWER:
In both cases the ball belongs to Team B. Team A can only keep the ball if they
recover the kick - that has not crossed the LOS - before it goes OB
SITUATION:
4th and 5 on the 50.
B1 muffs the punt at the B2 and it rolls in the end zone.
The ball rebounds from the end zone and rolls out of bounds at the B3....
Does this mean anything???
ANSWER:
when the ball is touched on a kick in the field of play - it
remains alive - and can be recovered and/or advance by either team. Of
course,
the kicking team can only recover a muffed kick. Since the ball remains alive
- it does
not matter where the ball is located. Thus the rolling of the ball from the
end zone to the field of play means nothing - except - in determining where
the kick ends (for penalty purposes)
PLAY: A's ball, 1st and 10, on A's 20. A32 advances to A's 25 and completes a backward pass to A43 on A's 23. A43 advances to A's 26 and fumbles. A64 recovers on A's 18 while grounded. A76 held on A's 19 during A32's run. The penalty is accepted. Ruling - 10 yards from A20 is penalty accepted
ANSWER - This year we reverted what all of us had done in the past... the end of the related run (forget the sum of the running plays). The change this year states that any contact foul - regardless of where the run ends - that occurs behind the LOS is a previous spot foul. That is why we penalize this foul from the previous spot.
Date 010326
Date 010326
Dear Dick,
I've got two questions about the answer in scenario
Hi Dick!
A question for you more "philosophy" oriented that just rules...
I
worked a game last Sunday where I called OPI on a receiver that went right at
his defender, grabbed him and try to fight his way through him all the time
(then I missed the grab by the defender, but that's not the point !).Of course,
there was a forward pass on the play (and yes, it crossed the LOS). The young
lad kept arguing about my call saying when in a "press" situation he
had to use his hands to fight the chuck by the defender(and that's what he was
apparently taught to do...). My problem was that he was about 5 yds
beyond the LOS when he powered his way through the DB and he didn't do anything
to avoid him.
I kept thinking about that call and the criteria you have to refer to
and I'm still wondering. As I'm sure you have not forgotten you were in the past
a downfield official, I think you'll have an answer for that.
Note that I'm not talking about the classic pick or even the OPI when the pass is catch able. I just want to know what will you allow a receiver to do against the D when 1) he's just coming off the LOS 2) when the D is in a zone defence and he's coming right at the DBs.
ANSWER:
The statement you have made which is underlined and highlighted answers your question. Restrictions for the offensive team starts at the snap - he MUST avoid the defender as much as it possible. If he made no attempt to avoid him then he is responsible. If a defender does make contact when the receiver is legitimately trying to run his pattern - that receiver can defend himself and to ward off the defensive player but that is all he can do. Any other pushing or driving through the defensive contact puts the responsibility back on the offence. Good decision on OPI
Date 010316
Our clinics have just begun and now there are the first questions regarding the
"new" penalty enforcement. While reading the rulebook people find out,
that there is a difference between the definition of the basic spot and Rule
10-2-2-c.
Rule 2-25-10 refers to the end of a run, while rule 10-2-2-c refers to the end
of a running play. And while explaining your definition of running play (email
from Sept 13th) they can1t find a change in rule 2-30-4, except that there is a
new exception (Exception: Rule 9-3-3b Holding).
[the rulebook was done very poorly in regards to this rule and there has been
much confusion here in the USA. It is much better to state exactly what the rule
is then try to get it out of the rulebook.]
Simply stated - where the sum of all things - runs, fumbles, backward passes,
leaves the ball at the end of the play - determines your enforcement spot. If
the sum ends behind the LOS the basic spot is the previous spot - if the foul is
behind the basic spot it is a spot foul. If the run ends beyond the LOS then the
basic spot is the end of the sum - fouls behind that spot are spot fouls.
NOW - there is ONE EXCEPTION TO THE ABOVE - HOLDING - that exception says if the
sum ends behind the LOS then the hold will always be enforced from the previous
spot. When the sum ends beyond the LOS holding is enforced like any other foul.
Questions:
To make it as easy as possible - when the sum of what we used to consider
individual running plays ends up behind the original line of scrimmage and there
is a holding penalty called - it will be enforced from the previous spot.
[this is correct]
Is it this what the exception in 2-30-4 means?
[yes - and the above statement is exactly correct]
And if this is valid for holding, what about other fouls?
[Holding is a separate issue and penalized differently then other fouls. Holding
is always a previous spot enforcement if the sum of the runs ends behind the LOS
and is always a basic spot foul if the sum of the runs ends beyond the LOS]
How have you enforced your penalties, except holding, this year ?-
[where the end of the sum of the runs ends will tell you the enforcement spot.
Example - if the sum of runs ends end behind the LOS then the basic spot for
enforcement is the previous spot - if the foul is behind the basic spot it is a
spot foul. If the foul is in advance of the basic spot - penalize from the basic
spot. This is exactly how we did it in the past except we used the related run
not the sum of the runs]
And do you have had some changes in the mechanics regarding the rule changes
this year. Where ends the running play, if there is a fumble or a backward pass
forward out of bounds or backward out of bounds.
[there is no change in the mechanics - you first need to determine where the run
ends - wherever the rules leave the ball with regard to backward passes and
fumbles out of bounds - when all of that is done - the ball is either behind or
beyond the LOS and you enforce according to that spot]
Intentional Grounding & Roughing the Passer - Dick Honig
Intentional Grounding - New 2000